Dentists Who Invest Podcast
Official Podcast of the Dentists Who Invest platform. Talking all things investing, money and finance with a dental spin. Have you ever wondered how you can grow your wealth and protect your hard earned money as a Dentist? We've got you covered. Featuring famous guests such as Andrew Craig, Edward Zuckerberg and Benyamin Ahmed we delve deep into EVERY aspect of finance to educate and empower ALL Dentists.
Dentists Who Invest Podcast
This Lady Has Done Everything There Is To Do In Dentistry with Dr Anne O'Donnell
You can download your FREE report on how you can avoid financial mistakes as a dentist using the link just here >>> dentistswhoinvest.com/podcastreport
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From practice owner to high-level corporate leader, Dr Anne O’Donnell has seen and done it all in dentistry. In this episode, she takes us through her journey—qualifying in 1984, navigating the strict advertising rules of the time, and building a thriving practice by 1998. Anne shares key lessons on branding, marketing, and adapting to an industry that’s constantly evolving, giving dentists a masterclass in long-term success.
We dive into the mindset shift that took Anne from running a practice to thinking like a CEO. She explains why every dentist should have a three-year growth plan and how applying business principles can accelerate success. Whether you’re looking to scale, sell, or simply make your practice more profitable, Anne’s strategic insights will change the way you view dental careers.
And when it comes to financial planning, Anne doesn’t hold back. We cover the realities of consolidation, transitioning to an associate-led model, and preparing for a lucrative exit. She also shares her latest venture in practice mentoring, helping dentists maximise their potential. If you want to future-proof your career and business, this episode is packed with wisdom you won’t want to miss.
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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional.
This lady has been and done absolutely everything whenever it comes to dentistry, and that includes being an associate principal, an associate-led principal and also in the c-suite of a flipping corporate, for goodness sake. So she has been privy to all those conversations that go along behind the scenes and she knows what goes on in there in the c-suite of those huge corporates across the country. Her name is Anne O'Donnell. We are very privileged to have her along on the Dentists Who Invest podcast today. She'll be sharing her wisdom and knowledge. Be sure to stick around for the part where Anne talks about the mindset of her colleagues who are from outside of dentistry, but we're in the c-suite of a large dental corporate alongside herself. I've been looking forward to this podcast today with Anne O'Donnell because Anne has probably the most impressive CV I've ever met out of anyone I've ever met whenever it comes to dental practice ownership, and we're going to be getting into that just now. Anne, your journey started back in 1984, you were telling me off cameras when you qualified from dentistry.
Dr Anne:Yes, James. Yeah, it wasn't yesterday, it was a few years ago and I suppose at this stage it might be the most impressive CV, but it's probably one of the most colorful ones anyway, oh right, well, and that makes for a good podcast, right?
Dr James:That makes for a good listener. Well, let's hope so. Yeah, brilliant, so let's talk about that, because you told me that you were part owner in a dental practice within two years of qualifying.
Dr Anne:Yes, yeah, so I, as you said, I qualified in 1984. And at that stage, literally the next day, I was in the UK looking for a position as an associate. I was there for two years, had a lovely, great two years, and then came back home. My uncle was actually a dentist, so I actually came back to work as an associate with him and we opened up a small part-time practice in a very small rural town as well as a second practice. So, yeah, so I was only two years qualified when I started that.
Dr James:Wow, wow, wow. And how was the inverted commas, the game, so to speak, or the how can I say this the setup or the landscape of owning a dental practice in 1984 different than it was now?
Dr Anne:Oh well, I suppose a regulation. Everything was completely different and actually, would you believe it, in 1984, we didn't actually wear gloves, I shouldn't even say that. Yeah, so it was quite different, but and there was no advertising you couldn't market. I mean, in Ireland, when I came home from back to start, I literally was allowed to put one small advert in the local paper and it had to be a certain size, and that was to announce that I'd started. And then after that it was like word of mouth and get the word out there about yourself.
Dr James:Seems crazy, because if they saw how people operate on social media these days, they'd have kitten, wouldn't they?
Dr Anne:oh, absolutely they would yeah, yeah that's for sure it was the traditional. You know the uh, the old cross man uh, and you know he was hidden upstairs. And find him, if you could. You know when you needed them.
Dr James:There we are, and I was just saying this to you off camera. It seems so bizarre. But once upon a time, the fact that advertising is okay seemed bizarre, so I guess that that's a really good. It's really an interesting cultural shift to observe right there. So there we go. So, yes, part owner in a dental practice and then got your first full dental practice in 1998 I believe that's when you got the reins things. Yes, yeah.
Dr Anne:So I suppose there's a little bit of a hiatus in between because I got married and I we took over a family business, so that was kind of the that was where the focus was for a couple of years and I had three children. So then in 1998 I said, right, okay, I need to, I need to have my own practice. So I actually started a squat practice and it was in a medical center, was actually one of the first kind of medical pharmacy centers. It was purpose built and and even though we couldn't advertise it, actually I have to say it actually grew quite quickly because a lot of the other dentists in town were. They were older, profile and, you know, having a new, nice, clean set up and, you know, really looked modern. So it really appealed to people. So word actually spread. So it actually built up quite quickly and I had an associate, had a hygienist and then had a visiting periodontist. Actually I had a visiting periodontist in 2001 and she placed implants and even though, again, we couldn't advertise, she managed to build up. We managed to build up an implant practice within a year. So you know it was.
Dr Anne:So I suppose it shows what you can do and how sometimes people think you know they have to be externally marketing. There's no other way. You know you do. You do need to do a lot on the ground as well, and I think I actually think that's where some practices lose out. You know they, they use external marketing people and they forget that. You know, at the end of the day, ultimately people come into them and they've got to produce the goods, they've got to be known, they've got to be trustworthy. So really, you know, whether you're an owner or an associate or a hygienist, you need to build your own brand wherever you're working or a hygienist, you need to build your own brand wherever you're working.
Dr James:Well, this is the thing, unless you have a good product. In any industry, marketing is just you've got the bonfire and that's the product. Marketing is like petrol or diesel throwing it on the bonfire, right, but if there's just a little ember there in the first place, it's not going to be nearly as effective, whereas it is already a great, great roaring fire. That's when you get the most out of it. So actually, people think that marketing is the magic bullet, and this is why, when you see these marketing companies and they say, oh, you can get a billion leads and everything along those lines, and I'm like, yeah, that's all well and good, but there's a little bit more context to it than that so I always take that stuff with a little bit of pinch of salt, but of course they can help when someone already has that killer product, which is what you were saying a second ago.
Dr James:This is something really interesting that you told me off camera as well. Your next move was to grow the practices and then sell them and become a clinical director this is all true.
Dr Anne:Yes, yes, so I actually. I actually bought my uncle's practice as well and then I. So I then had two practices and you know I suppose to be at that stage. It wasn't possible. There were very few mentors around or very few people offering, you know, assistance or and I suppose you know it can be lonely as a, as a principal, and people think that you have all the answers and that you know that you don't, that you don't need help. So I think a lot of principals are probably slow to reach out or at that stage were slow to reach out, and at that stage then Smiles had opened a couple of practices in Dublin and in other towns and I looked at it and I thought probably better to join. I'm going to be competing with them. Why don't I join them at an early stage? So I contacted them and then I was offered to be a clinical director. I thought, right, ok, so this is a good position, let's go with this. So I did that and it was actually.
Dr Anne:It was a really interesting journey because I was on it like it was. It was a proper board. It was on the board and there was, you know, the ex-chairman of a bank that one of the biggest banks in Ireland was. On the board, there was a, an owner of a software company who had had a really successful exit, two really successful property developers, but none of them knew anything about dentistry, but they really knew business and they had a plan and they had a plan to exit and they and they did. They had a plan to grow and then a plan to exit.
Dr Anne:So that really, I suppose it opened my eyes about and I looked, you know, at my, obviously at my own practice and obviously I knew what I had been paid for it, and then I knew the value that they got for it as well and I thought, hmm, I need to get back into this, I need to redo this. I did this too early and follow, do something like what they've done. So I bought another practice in 2013, which was actually run down. It was only a three-day week and I built that up now to four surgeries with general and specialists and and I'm in the process of selling that at the moment- Wow, wow, wow.
Dr James:So that that spurred you on to pick up the reins and re-enter practice ownership, because you saw business from a completely different perspective, and I'm actually really interested to talk about that actually, because this is something that very few people get to experience and I suppose their mind wanders what sort of discussions happen in the boardrooms of the corporates.
Dr Anne:Yes, you've been privy to this right yes, yeah, yeah, uh, well, they would, I mean certainly, uh, they systems and they're also very, um, I mean, they're not slow to get advice. So I remember one stage there was an issue it was, you know, potentially a legal claim with the patient and literally during the meeting they rang the solicitor and he was in the office in 10 minutes to discuss it, whereas you know a dentist would say, oh, to ring medical protection. Oh, you know I have to wait for a response and you know we would be sleepless nights and wondering this was just done and dusted, finished, done, yeah, so, uh, and yeah, just a completely different. They literally just so. You know, what do they need to do? How do they need to get the practices to grow? Get it done, get who do they need? Get it done, and we're going to get it done by x date. And then, and that's what they did, and they just followed a pattern, followed a pattern efficient yeah it's kind of.
Dr James:It's kind of like they say there's such a thing as the school of life, and I think people say that like slightly tongue-in-cheek, but it kind of is a thing whenever it comes to business, because you can't, those people will have learned so many things in their respective fields that they would have applied to dentistry.
Dr Anne:So I'm wondering well, this is it and James, you hear you know. Oh, you're the. You know you're the product of the five people you hang around with. But I mean, most dentists don't get to hang around in a boardroom like that, so they don't ever have that's like the c-suite so they don't have, they don't have, they never get that opportunity.
Dr Anne:So it's, it's a different mindset, um, and I think as well, you know, as dentists, I think we are very tunnel visioned. So when you know, when you say, oh, you know, this is interesting, you sold, you went back again. A lot of dentists, you know they, they stew over buying a practice and it's like as if you know they can never that it's the last decision they'll ever make. They can always buy it, they can always sell it. It may not be the right, that first practice may not be their last practice, or it may be the first of many, or they may discover that they don't, that after three years they've done as much as they can with it, they've got the lifestyle they want and they're going to sell it.
Dr Anne:So I think we get too, we're too tunnel visioned into thinking you know you buy a practice and you're going to have that until the day you retire or until the day you decide to sell it.
Dr Anne:Um, and you know, without having a plan and without saying, right, for the next three, this practice I'm going to work on for the next three years, and after three years I'm actually going to make a decision, what happens next or where it goes to next, where I go to next, or, you know, do I add another practice, or you know what am I going to do? But I think too many owners end up 20 years into ownership in the same position that they were in the day they bought it, probably, except that they, you know, they don't have a loan on the practice, but they haven't maybe developed it, or they still haven't got a, they still haven't got a plan for it and this is an interesting thing to touch on right, because in that c-suite you will have seen that they have a completely different perspective on business versus the the mom and dad dental practice or something along those lines.
Dr James:They want to get in and get out.
Dr Anne:Yes, three-year plan three. And you know they say regardless if you can do it in 10 years, you can do it in three. So why not as a dentist? So any day, any young dentist who's looking at buying a practice within three years, they should have it where they want it to be.
Dr James:Ooh, yeah, big statement I like it. Yeah, I like it. Well, why? Not Go for it, aim for it.
Dr Anne:You know why think oh, it'll take me 10 years to get it to the level that I want.
Dr James:Is the logic that you're getting at? Is it kind of like that Elon Musk quote? And it's like take your five-year goal and try to achieve it in six months, and if you don't get there, you'll have got way further than what you would have done otherwise. So that's still a success.
Dr Anne:Exactly James. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see so that's the logic.
Dr James:Yeah, yeah, I see. So that's the logic.
Dr Anne:Yeah, yeah. Because, as I say, three years, within three years, you, if you take over a practice and if you buy a practice with the vision most people buy a practice with the vision that oh, I can you know, I want to do it my way, I want to do it better.
Dr James:Well, okay do it, and do it enthusiastic love it.
Dr Anne:So one set.
Dr James:One difference you certainly noticed was they had way more of a plan in that absolutely, absolutely, yeah, any other big standout moments where you were like, whoa, this is different or this is a mindset shift for me as a principal well, I suppose, James, seeing that you know, they actually knew, they literally knew nothing about dentistry.
Dr Anne:I mean, at one meeting I do remember the chairman was looking at the accounts and he said, oh, the chair. Why is the chair depreciating or what's it? You know what's this about. And I said, well, it's an electric chair with water, you know. So it, you know it only goes up and down so many times and then you've got to replace it and that's, you know what you're you work your practice from. And he said, all right, okay. So he literally didn't know you know what, what a dental chair was, and yet he was successfully managing a chain of practices. So we think, as dentists, I think it goes two ways we actually have a lot of knowledge that we don't give ourselves credit for, and then we think that because we're dentists, we know better than anybody else how to run a practice, and maybe we don't.
Dr James:They say that the skills of business are translatable, and I agree with that, you know. I mean, it's going to be yeah, there's going to be variations business to business, but there's a lot of crossover. So here's the thing. What we got to remember is, by the same token, they didn't that guy literally didn't know that a dental chair was a mechanical appliance and therefore a depreciated. He still ran a successful business. Let's remember.
Dr Anne:Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think the other um thing for somebody who isn't, say, isn't, a dentist, they know they can never go in there and work in that practice, so they have to have somebody else there to do it for them. But often, you know, especially owners end up, you know, covering for an associate or, you know, because they can work in, you know they decide they're going to take more time off and then something happens and they're sucked back into it again and you almost when, if you decide you're going to take the kind of ownership role, that's it you have to. Those days are absolutely, should be absolutely non-clinical well, it's working on the business versus in the business is the adage, isn't it?
Dr James:yeah, you said something else really interesting when I was, because I was listening earlier whenever you were talking about how being in that environment made you think, okay, maybe I didn't get the exit in terms of returns or remunerations that I deserved from my previous business yeah what made you real?
Dr James:What specifically made you realize that, where you were like okay, cool, brilliant, I've sold it for X amount and I can now see these guys are generating this crazy return, which would mean that actually the valuation should have been much more than what I let it go for. Was that what happened? Is that pretty much what?
Dr Anne:happened, yeah, but I suppose, in fairness, it was probably that you know it was valued at what it was valued at the time when I sold it.
Dr Anne:They immediately started doing, you know, double shifts, eight to eight, opening Saturdays and whatever. And then you do have the effect of you know, when you've got a group. So if you've got a really good practice at the moment and it sells for, like you know, five times what they call EBITDA, the profit as a single owner, if you put that together, if you put a new bunch of those together, if you've got 10 practices, that suddenly becomes 10 times. So you actually double the value anyway in a, in a group situation. And that's what a lot of that's what the groups really are working on and that's why you know, even when they buy a practice say in the uk at the moment, for six times, and they know that they're going to get that eventually that's going to be times, and they know that they're going to get that eventually that's going to be flipped and they get 10 times once you get. Once you get an EBITDA of 3 million together, you'll get 10 times from any of the equity people and yeah, that's a little.
Dr James:We we've definitely mentioned that before in the dentistry invest podcast, but it's worth mentioning again because not enough people know about that. The second you have two practices together that have a certain multiple. They're both worth a million and the multiple is what? Like five right, something like that. They can you put them both together and they're still worth 2 million, except the well, the multiple is like 10. So they're, you know they would normally be worth 2 million but the multiple is more so.
Dr Anne:Therefore they're worth more is what I'm saying. Yes, yeah, and that's where you know, like in the in the states now, there are dentists forming groups and doing that themselves. Rather than selling to the group, excelling individually to the groups, they're actually forming dentists, own groups, with equity, uh, backing them, and it makes sense there we are, are but that's a whole. You know that would need another level of education and mindset change within the industry to see themselves, as you know, board members on a group of owners.
Dr James:Let's talk about your current practice, because I know that you were well, listen, I want to let you take the lead on this, because I can't remember what you said and I don't know what information is privy and what isn't OK OK. What's happening at the minute with your practice?
Dr Anne:OK so at the moment I am looking to exit and I've got a corporate assets. They're a corporate finance group. They're actually handling the sale for me. And, yes, because I want to just concentrate, I've got other opportunities, including practice mentoring, and I think I mentioned to you I'm working with Smiler. It's actually an Irish-based company, but they're um, two seasoned, um, um software developers who have developed a marketplace for dental.
Dr Anne:So, going back to the, to the advertising, this would be like a bookingcom for dental practices wow so rather than somebody searching and looking, going through websites, seeing do people do X, y or Z, they actually just put in what they're looking for and all the practice in the area come up. So I think it will take a lot of stress it will. It will remove a lot of that external marketing requirement from practices or actually hone it in for them, at least a little bit so that's the next project, so to speak that's the next project.
Dr Anne:Yes, yeah, and as I, and some mentoring, because obviously I've learned a lot on the way, um and um, you know, I suppose you, you realize what you, you suddenly realize what you know and what other people don't know. You know even just simple things, like you know property leases and locations, and it's just, yeah, there is a lot, I suppose, to looking at practice, to seeing a practice and seeing the potential within it and developing it.
Dr James:Well, I know that I wanted to let you take the lead on the exit side of things, to make sure I didn't speak out of turn. So now we've the cat's out of the bag on that one. That's the plan for that.
Dr James:And you've got your practice to a stage where it's pretty much associate led correct, yes, excellent. How did you? I'm just interested, how? Yes, yeah, excellent, how did you? I'm just interested. How did that journey look for you? When you came out of the C-suite you saw things with a different pair of eyes and you were like right, how can I do much more of the up here higher tier managing? Stuff versus the doing, and then that kind of spurred you on.
Dr Anne:Yeah, yeah, it's a hard. Yeah, it does take a little bit of a change of mindset and I was also very aware of not making it, having a situation where people just wanted to see me and not that I was the best dentist or whatever. But you know, if it's very personal and people see going to the associate as second best, so I that's why I purposely made it associate driven and that I took, if I did need to work clinically, I took the excess, rather than the other way around.
Dr Anne:I see so made sure that the associates were busy and that people saw that.
Dr Anne:You know that that was and that, and you know and, and that I was quite particular about who, who I saw and the work that I did.
Dr Anne:Now, I did get pulled in occasionally then when, and in fact in the last couple of months, I was probably there a little bit more than waiting on people to get registered. But yeah, it's because really, once you're working clinically, James, it's very difficult to work on the business because your mind, you know you're completely focused on what you're doing. And then, because your mind, you know you're completely focused on what you're doing, and then when you're, you know, at the end of the day, when you're finished, that's, you know you just want to go home and relax. So you do need that, you do need to change and you've got to look, you've got to say well, ok. And again, it comes back to earnings as well, because you know that if you are in the, in the practice for the day, how much you can earn, and that by sitting out, you know you're not going to replace that income straight away. So you've got to work on how you get those other people working for you to to replicate that income you know just on that.
Dr James:So knowing the numbers is, for anybody who I've ever met who's taken their practice on that, uh, principal principal, you know, principal owner operator. Uh, position to associate lead. They always say one of the most important things is knowing your numbers. And let's get into that in two seconds because, reading between the lines, you've obviously looked into that significantly to get yourself where you are, and also your experience as a director is going to be interesting with relevance to that as well. But one other thing I was going to say just before we talk about that.
Dr James:I always think the goal kind of taking yourself out of your own business is like a chicken and an egg thing, right, and what I mean by that is it's like which which comes first, right. So you're working really hard in the business. You're working really hard to make money to free up your time, right, but you're actually making probably just enough to kind of keep you where you are. So you almost have to and from what I've experienced, you almost have to let go a little of a little bit of money, at least in the short term right, just to get a little bit of time back, then.
Dr James:This time that you've now got back is a little bit of a slow burn, because you will eventually see it come through in the numbers, in the practice, but it takes a little bit of perseverance to get to that stage. So what I'm saying is you get back your time, but you have to create some time in the first place to get back your time, which is like a chicken and an egg thing, so you have to make yourself do it.
Dr Anne:That's what I've commonly observed, at least yes, and the thing, James, well, you know, and uh, that's you know, from the e-myth, work in your business or whatever. If you're in a, if you're a as a mechanic or whatever, and you're earning x amount, obviously you still have to replace your income if you come out. But this is the issue with dentists, because we know this sort of saying, we know that we can earn, you know, a thousand euros today by working in the clinic and that's. That's almost easy. And it is difficult to say, well, actually I'm not going to earn that today, I'm going to earn, but I, but I, this is my long-term plan and that's. That is the difficult part.
Dr James:That's the part that keeps people stuck big time. Yes, yeah yeah, and you've obviously went through that right. Yes, yeah.
Dr Anne:And I think you have to, and that's where you know, finding maybe a niche as well so that you can actually have, you know, maybe two days that are high earning and make up as well for some of your income. But you've really got to look, you've really got um, you've got to realize that when you don't work in the chair you don't get paid as a clinician let's talk about the numbers side of things, because most business owners could be.
Dr James:It's not, it's not. Do we know our numbers or do we not know them? As to what degree do we know them? It's like a continuum isn't it yeah? So let's talk about that journey for yourself and when it comes, what are, what's, what's the need to know, the bare minimum you need to know in order to start moving your practice more towards associate led and taking control of your business so you need to know what each surgery is costing you per day.
Dr Anne:And you've got to, you've really got to look at everything. I think people you know, even with, say, with staff, people say, oh, I'm paying my nurse 15 euros an hour, but they forget. Then there's also, you know, government tax on top of that and in fact you know that's actually 20 percent higher when you look at it overall and you look at the number of days. So you really need to look at the number of days somebody's going to work, the full cost of running that surgery for 52 weeks, and then know, you know, when somebody takes time off, how much do you have to make up? Or you know, if there's a slow month, what effect is that going to have? How long is it going to take to make that up in another month?
Dr Anne:So it's, yeah, you've, but once you, once you know those numbers, then you know you, it's easier to keep. Just keep tabs on it. So, uh, yeah, so look, um, I'm sure this, uh, we could keep on talking, uh, but there's uh, uh, maybe there's there's a room for for more discussion at another stage. And look, if anybody wants to reach out to me, I'm on linkedin, um and uh, James can pop my email here as well, if anyone wants to pop me an email.
