Dentists Who Invest Podcast

Leaving The UK: Is Now The Time? with Dan Fine [CPD Available]

• Dr. James Martin • Season 4 • Episode 421

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Thinking about leaving the UK for a better tax deal or a simpler life? We unpack the real calculations behind that decision—from inheritance tax worries and wage inflation to VAT shocks and the tightening margins that push many principals to the brink. Dan Klein, owner of Hive Accountancy in Cornwall, joins us to share what he’s seeing across hundreds of dental clients: frustration is real, but so are the misconceptions about relocation and tax.

We dive into why the “move and save” story is often oversold. There’s no overnight fix; meaningful tax advantages tend to require multi‑year planning, residency commitment, and a clear picture of where you’ll live, when you’ll sell, and how you’ll invest. We explore why some dentists commute from Dubai, where that model makes sense, and where it falls apart. If you’re eyeing a big exit, timing and structure matter more than hearsay—and the best results come when your personal life actually fits the place you plan to call home.

Not everyone needs to move. We talk candidly about dentistry’s “middle age,” where easy growth has faded and operating discipline wins. For some, the smarter play is to stay, run a tight practice, or even step back to a high‑performing associate role while maximising pensions, ISAs, and diversified investing. We compare active vs passive approaches, how to avoid silver‑bullet thinking, and the mindset required to hold through market dips without panicking. Whether you stay or go, the path to a calmer, wealthier future comes from clarity, patience, and a plan you’ll actually follow.

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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.

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Dr James:

Leaving the UK is a topic hot on everyone's top on the top top of everyone's mind rather should I say, especially dentist is the recent tackle and the general theme of that being a consistent thesis of philosophy of the government for the next few years. I'm here today to discuss exactly this with Dan Fine, owner of Hive County Space Gun in Cornwall. We're gonna be exploring the argument for leaving the UK, the argument for staying in the UK, and talking about everything else surrounding that so people can get a real good idea as to whether or not the grass is always greener or it isn't. As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists who invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then upon completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode. What's up everybody? We're here to talk about leaving the UK. Little bit taboo, or is it not taboo? I don't even know these days, man, because so many people are talking about it. And the reason actually where this podcast came from, we came on today. We were going to do a podcast about the budget, and then we were just catching up off camera, and Dan was like, you know what's really hot these days? The fact that everybody's talking about how they want to leave the UK. And we we just want to discuss that today. We're not just to set the record straight, we're not gonna argue for or against, and we're also gonna leave politics at the door today. Politics is for other podcasts, not for us to discuss today. Um, uh, just to make that clear to everybody, uh, that's that's not what we're here to talk about. We're just here to talk about the ins and outs of the the arguments for and against leaving the UK, as we say. Anyway, Dan, how are you? Very good, very good, nice to see you, James. Hey, likewise, my friend. I don't know how it's quite taken us like four years to actually get a podcast in the diary, but here we are, we finally made it happen, and we've made it happen on an extra juicy subject as well, which I think is going to be quite fun for the audience. Dan, why did you let's let's recap, right? Just to bring the audience into the picture. Why why did you uh bring that up when we were off camera? You you were saying a lot of your clients are asking you about it, right? Leaving them.

Dan:

Yeah, uh yeah, so um in in our kind of accountancy business, philosophically, we're we're uh always trying to act for our clients to reduce their tax bill, like that's a kind of core tenant of how we operate. So, kind of by that nature, we obviously attract people who have uh are probably more commercially minded, more interested in their business, and more interested in kind of mitigating as much tax as possible. So it's kind of reached this point, and we've seen it over the past few years. So we've got clients that kind of commute from Dubai and all of these different things, but certainly in the last year, more and more people are structuring their tax affairs. So when they sell their business or exit, um, they can immediately relocate to another country, wherever that might be, uh, that suits their needs more. So it was it it really hit home the other night. So a long-standing client that's a really good chap and really switched on, it almost just felt like the last budget was like the last blow he could take. And he was uh so someone that hadn't, you know, it hadn't been on his radar before, he's like, I just don't get it anymore. So it's very, very topical. We're seeing it across our client base. Like you say, uh, it's not for us to kind of judge or make a call of it, but I do kind of I do understand the sentiment because the way the government inherently works is they kind of levy most of their taxes from small business owners who are kind of the backbone of the economy, um, and all my clients are small business owners, so we just feel really squeezed um and are looking for any options, because even the best solutions you can get now, it's still pretty crazy the amount of tax you've got to pay.

Dr James:

Indeed. And would you say there is a specific tax that is cited as people's reason to leave, or is it just the general It's the gener it's the the death of a thousand cuts thing?

Dan:

So like uh and it's probably generational as well. So like um in kind of my dad's generation, uh you know, um, you've got an IFA business, so it's very shrewd to kind of build your pension, make these investments so you can retire well. Like, that's really good advice. So my dad had kind of conservatively done that throughout his life. All his mates did it, and now suddenly they're being told it's getting hit with IHT. So suddenly that um nest egg that they'd built to pass down to their family is reduced by 40%, and it's because they're choosing to live in Britain. So it's kind of like that's a lot to suck up amongst the other stuff as well. So, you know, I don't think I don't think many of that generation are planning on on leaving, but certainly for the other people, IHT's been a big driver. Um minimum I mean this isn't a tax, but minimum wage is uh is a pretty uh damaging thing. So over the past five years, minimum wage has gone up by 43%. So just the challenges of running a business in the UK are even higher now. So it's more difficult to make the money, it's more difficult difficult to run the business and have margins, and then if you do make margins, you're getting absolutely rinsed for tax. So I think it's have you read Atlas Shrugged?

Dr James:

No, I haven't read that book.

Dan:

So uh it's written by a lady called Anne Rand. Uh, she was a Russian immigrant to America in the 20th century, so she left Soviet Russia. Dad was a fairly successful pharmacist. Um, and I think what they did because their flat had extra bedrooms, they like moved more people in. So we know kind of what happened in 20th century century Russia, pretty tough place to be. Um, and uh so she relocated to the states that she loved. The premise of the book is kind of what I'm saying about small business owners propping up what exists, that really productive people often are the ones that get squeezed the hardest. And the the premise of the book, so Atlas who holds up the world, eventually might just shrug and give up and stop holding up the world. So it's fairly extreme. She's a fairly polarizing character, but I think that's the point that a lot of UK dentists have now hit, uh, and small business owners, they're just going, come on, at which point do we get a break on this? Uh another, you know, this this isn't to do with people leaving, but um school fees, the VAT on school fees thing is like is rough. Like it's really rough. So, you know, many of um I'd probably say most of our clients work very hard because they're trying to, you know, trying to give their kids a better life. That's what most people are trying to do. Uh, and they, you know, I'm not saying it is or isn't, but often people choose that going to a private school might be you know be better uh for their kids. Uh so it doesn't, it's not like hitting uh anyone that's got loads of money, it's hitting people that might earn what sounds like a lot of money, but post-tax and then adding on an extra 20% is really you know, it's just another one of those gut gut punches that um maybe this is it, and maybe it's a bit more ideological that I feel almost the obligation to the country uh is changing because of how draconian the tax system is. Does that make sense?

Dr James:

It it does, right? There it's it's like we all have some level of patriotism, but it's it's it's gonna be there's a limit in there, right? Where someone where you feel like you're just getting pardon the term mubbed off, basically, I guess, um, is is the is the feeling. I'm not saying that's that that's that anyone should feel that way or it's valid, uh, but perhaps some people do. Um I'm not saying I feel that way for the record. Um, but I'm guessing that that's what the sentiment is, in essence.

Dan:

That that's the sentiment. So when I first started working with dentists uh 13 years ago, you know, our message was clear at uh um at trade shows, dentists pay too much tax tax. So that was the big sign on our stand. People would kind of walk past, eye it up, be a bit nervous to come over, and maybe on the second day in the afternoon they'd creep up and go, right, what can I do about saving tax? Because it was embarrassing to think that you'd want to mitigate your tax bill. Whereas now, but behind closed doors, everyone wanted to reduce their tax bill. Now it's not the same. Everyone's everyone's kind of talking about it and interested in what can I do? Because if I don't do anything, I'm gonna be in a really, really tough spot. But yeah, the kind of public sentiment side of it is uh you don't know about it till you've been there as well. So um I remember my friend uh when he first was reaching the VAT threshold, he was like, Oh no, I'm reaching the VAT threshold, uh, but at least it's only 20% on stuff after 80 grand. And I was like, No, it's like it's all of it, and he couldn't, I could see like the cogs turning in his head, and he was like, But that's not fair, and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, like it isn't really fair, but like you get so used to it as a small business owner that like, oh okay, that's happening now. I'm just gonna I'm gonna suck it up and keep moving, and that's that's part of being an entrepreneur, I suppose. But it's uh yeah, I definitely I'd probably say a lot of people are kind of losing their wind um with it and just yeah, that kind of deepening frustration. And to be honest, I think it's more of a like a kind of magical solution to leave the co for a lot of for some people, in fairness, like it really makes sense. They're maybe not from the UK, they actually want to move back to where you're where they're from, and there's like it's almost always been on our radar designing that exit for them so we can kind of eke out every tax opportunity. Whereas I think some people are just looking for anything that's like this Hail Mary Pass, where oh, do you know if I just move to that place and I stay there for however long, um, then I kind of mitigate all this tax. Um, but yeah, it's it's definitely not as simple, I'd say. So usually what happens is uh a mate down the pub has kind of told someone, right, if you move to X country for three years, actually you'll kind of save on all of these taxes. And and actually the the I think it's a minimum of seven years, and it's like pretty, it's it's not obviously the government haven't made it easy to do it, so you kind of have to really want to live in the place that you're moving to as well. Uh, which sounds obvious, but like often that's kind of I don't know. Uh it's the there's definitely no kind of panacea to it, but I think the perception amongst people is like, oh, I can only do little things in the UK and need a big thing to to mitigate this tax, broadly.

Dr James:

Yeah, I hear you, you know, quick story on the VAT thing. I remember when that happened to me, and I remember what's the VAT threshold nowadays, like 90 grand or something like that.

Dan:

Uh I do you know what? I'm not actually sure because we work with dentists, but um the year it happened to me, it was 85.

Dr James:

I think it's 99. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, so I remember I was like, Oh, okay, well, at least I've got my 85 grand tax free next year. And my accountant was like, ha ha ha ha ha. He laughed at me down the phone, and I was like, I actually did him know, and I was like, Why are you laughing? Because he just thought this was the silliest thing that anyone had ever said too. But he's like, No, it's everything from this point forward. And I was like, Oh my god, are you serious? Because 20% is a lot of people's margin.

Dan:

Well, it's it's most so the average dental practice in the UK. So I see practices I haven't seen before, maybe kind of two or three a week, and have done for the past 10 years. The average margin, I'd say, after the principal's been paid, is about three to six percent that we see. And that was even when it was serious. Most don't make money. Most dental practices in the UK don't make money. Now, there are some, you know, we've got clients that have got 30% EBITDA, like they're really good business owners, and they've really worked hard to achieve it. Whereas most, the principal gets paid for their dentistry, kind of like their associate, but they've also got a few million quid invested in something that's giving them zero return. It's quite often our job saying, why don't you just flog the business, uh, speak to James, chuck it in the stock market, uh, get a decent return, not sweat it, you know, like not have to have a team and get paid for being a dental associate.

Dr James:

Well, yeah, I mean, do you want my answer to that? Is a quick quick assessment. Yeah, yeah, of course. A lot of people, I think they're they're trained subconsciously to think that this is just their life, right? And they can't change things, you know. And it's like you can get, you know, definitely not financial advice, yeah, but you can get 10, 11, 12% every single year on average in the stock market without really doing anything when you have the right fund. Okay. Um, obviously that doesn't it depend there's a few variables in there, it depends on someone's age, it depends on when they need the money. Like I say, if you're not sure about that, definitely speak to a good financial planner. But the headline is that that is possible, right? Uh you just gotta know how it's done, of course. Um, but yeah, no, you're right. Like it's like um well the the the only yeah, yeah. The one thing about business although to counterbalance that, the one thing about your business though is even though you are working in it, it will give you cash flow. But then again, you can just become an associate, can't you? So you've kind of got you're kind of in the same place anyway. And and I know I know loads of people who sold their practices and just went and worked as an associate because they're just like, I'm getting paid more and I'm working two days a week and I don't have to think about it afterwards. Anyway, subject conversation for another day. But yeah, so yeah, the the um where I was going with that was I was yeah, I was I was interested to know, yeah, just as we were saying earlier, there doesn't seem to be what well, I mean, from what you're saying, there's a general frustration with the tax situation in the UK. There's a few taxes that are being cited, but it's not like there's one in particular that is like the totem, the the obelisk of uh the the the the the dentist's ire, so to speak. Uh but yeah, okay, cool. So interesting one, and I don't quite know if this is something that you you're your uh necessarily, this is your forte per se. And we kind of touched on this earlier. How easy is it to just uproot and go to another country and pay less tax? Is it not a process? Does it not take time? Do you know of anyone who's done that successfully? UK dentists, Dentists Who Invest now has an official platform where you can learn about finance and obtain UK compliant, verifiable CBD at the same time. The only platform that exists on which you can do both. The Smart Money Members Club has hundreds of hours of mini courses, webinar series, and live day recordings on all things finance slash tax efficiency for UK dentists. This includes complete courses on how tax works for UK dentists, finance so that you can invest and grow your own money, business so you can improve your profitability as an associate or principal, and for those out there that want it, there's also a mini course on how you can responsibly enter the crypto space using measured amounts of capital. I've gathered this content from the best of the best I could find in each respective area so that you know that this is how people at the forefront of each field advise their clients. The Smart Money Members Club also contains discounts on common things that UK dentists need to pay for on a regular basis. This includes a whopping 10% discount on dental indemnity, the offer to beat your income protection deal no matter what you're paying, and for the principals out there, 5% discount on lab bills and 10% discount on practice insurance. These are designed to offer hundreds, if not thousands, in annual savings. The purpose of this members club is to not only boost your monthly income but also manage your outgoings as much as possible and therefore create more profit. To celebrate the launch of the Smart Money Members Club, and given that the CPD deadline is coming up soon, I've decided to offer the first month for this platform entirely for free. This offer will end in the coming weeks as soon as the current CPD cycle is up. To collect your CPD for this podcast episode using the Smart Money Members Club, feel free to use the link in the description of this podcast.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean the devil's very much in the detail in what you're trying to do. So, like I say, we've got probably more clients than you'd think that actually do um harness the advantages of being in Dubai and just fly in to do a few days dentistry a month. So that that exists, um, but each case is obviously individual, how they've mitigated it. Um, but definitely if you're looking at capturing as much tax upside from your big exit, so when you sell your practice all practices, um there's like no slam dunk, and you have to be very it's actually the same for any tax thing. You have to be very clear about what you want to do. It's it's what you were saying about financial planning, like there's no off-the-shelf financial plan for anyone, like you need to actually do the planning and it but and you also need to stick to the planning as well, which a lot of people don't realise. There's kind of there's no button you can press that gives you the tax saving. But if you know that you want to retire to the south of France in 10 years' time and you're looking to sell this asset for five million quid, we we can help at that point, type thing. So we can kind of put things in place that harness every percentage point possible. But if suddenly that stops being the south of France and it needs to be 20 million quid and something changes, then you might have missed the tax opportunities that you could have got um had you been clear about what you really wanted in advance.

Dr James:

I see, so it's definitely not something that you just overnight stop paying or start, you know, overnight you pay less tax. Uh so um that's a good thing to know because that goes somewhere to shattering the kind of grass is always a greener illusion.

Dan:

That's probably the I mean it's the perfect analogy, and it is that the mate down the pub, there'll always be someone you speak to that has this slam dunk solution for you. And I think yeah, I think that's definitely the sentiment amongst the client base that it's some level of kind of exhaustion of the goalposts keeping moving and going, there's just got to be somewhere where I can get to that greener grass, and it's just kind of not the case. Because yeah, I think that's the other frustration that you know, like no comment on the political elements, but it's not like there is a a party that could get voted in that is pro-smus. Do you know what I mean? So there's not like a kind of democratic solution, it's just like if you're gonna be in the UK, uh so yeah, if you earn a hundred and fifty K in the UK, your tax contribution is the same as twenty one people on minimum wage. Like that's pretty crazy. You run that by me again just so I can appreciate if your if your wage is what sorry 150k 150k you will be paying actually more tax than 21 people on minimum wage, and that's no comment on people on minimum wage, it's just a fact that if you're if you cross that 50k threshold and become successful, you just suddenly get rinsed. I was trying to explain. Well, actually, yeah, I wasn't trying to explain, he did understand it, but my nephew's trying to get uh become a lawyer of saying, look, if there's a job for 50 grand or a job for 70 grand, like don't necessarily go for the money because actually that 20 grand upside isn't 20 grand in your pocket, you'll get absolutely rinsed on it. So you will have objectively more cash, but not as much as it looks like. So do kind of go for the better opportunity, not the cash today. And that's really counterintuitive, but it's the reality that anything after that 50 grand mark, you get rinsed. And I don't know, I think probably my opinion when I was uh younger was like, well, if I was earning 50 grand, I'd be happy, you know, I'd be happy enough because I'd have loads of money, and then you're like, yeah, it's not actually as much money as it feels.

Dr James:

Interesting. And you know what we could very easily do in this podcast, we could get into all the ways you could mitigate taxes in the UK, but we're actually not going to do that today because there's loads of podcasts that we've done um on that before. This is more of a little bit of a philosophical uh discussion more than anything else. And in your opinion, I know obviously, Dan, it's very hard to comment. Um in your well, actually, just before I ask that question, Dan, in your 13 years, I think you said earlier experience working with Dennis, has the has the theme been that taxes consistently rise at this rate? Is that what you've you've noticed? Have they always been going up?

Dan:

Yeah, um, and the and the pressures, I suppose, of having a dental practice. So, I mean, it's always challenging to have any business at any time because you know there's people in it, etc. So the you know, that's the caveat. I'm not trying to be disparaging, but um buying a dental practice or having a dental practice when I first got into it was a bit like uh buying property in the year 2000 in London. Like you weren't the shrewdest property, you didn't have to be the shrewdest property investor, just inflation happened, the value of the the property went up, and that kind of happened in dentistry. So I think the GDP spend on dentistry went up three or four times over that decade. So it was just demand was increasing, high-value treatments appeared, um, and kind of if you're in the party, you do pretty well from it. And that would that was my early experience in dentistry. Um, so yeah, it's not just a tax position that's got worse. It's like um, so you know, when you're a teenager, you can kind of go out every night of the week, still get a place bought on Saturday, feel great, look great. Uh, then suddenly you hit 30 and you go, hang on, I probably should look at my diet here and start exercising a bit more, and then you kind of creep more towards that middle age point, and uh suddenly you have to really think about this stuff. Dentistry's just in middle age now, so it's not like it's it's just harder than it was. Um, so that's why you know we're discussing my advisory service earlier, and it's something I take really seriously because actually delivering advice eight years ago was quite straightforward. It was like put some business infrastructure in place, invest in marketing, you know, look at what your associates are grossing. More or less everyone would do pretty well from doing just that, whereas now it's just much more complicated. But I'm still seeing some quite scary advice being given, to be honest, like as if it's like the olden days. So, like, you know, um someone was looking on taking that on this crazy investment, which for them to make it so they've got a practice that turns over about 300k. They're not my advisory client. Uh, they were looking on taking it on a site that would have to turn over four million quid for it to for the numbers to stack up, and their advice from their advisor was does this align with your ad your vision? That's what the the advisor asked them. Uh and they said yeah, and he said, crack on, do it. It's like, what they're gonna end up bust. Like there's absolutely there's nothing in their track record that suggests, you know, like if my best client said, by the way, I'm gonna set up a squat, the threshold for success is four million quid. I don't know, I'd be like, uh, do you really isn't there easier ways we can uh we can make some upside here? But that's that's the industry. It's um yeah, that that is a theme of this year that I felt a bit gaslit by a lot of the stuff I was seeing and reading because I get to see the numbers of hundreds of dental practices, so I know what's happening in the industry, um, and it's not reflected necessarily by what you see on LinkedIn or whatever. I'm I'm not actually on any of the dental groups on Facebook, uh, so I don't know what that's like. You'll obviously have a much stronger insight into that. Um but yeah, I was kind of worried that I don't know, the industry hadn't really woken up to the fact that it's in middle age. Um, but definitely I don't know, towards the end of this year, it it's changed, like people are really getting in contact. And that yeah, I don't know what your opinion on it, but I the switch from being a dentist to a business owner is not like an like it's not an like a promotion. Do you know what I mean? Like it's it's like you've been super structured to qualify as a dentist. You had to like when did you how old were you when you first thought you were gonna be a dentist?

Dr James:

Uh I think I was 17 when I decided, and then 25 when I qualified, something along those lines.

Dan:

Super, super yeah, yeah, like that's pretty structured how you get to that point, and then suddenly people get to 30 and they're really good at their craft, and they go, right, I'm gonna buy a business. Like that's a crazy move sideways. Like, I I don't think it should be necessarily a good step. If you want like financial security, a nice life, and control over your work-life balance, like be a really good associate, set up a limited company, put money in a pension. Uh, this isn't uh financial advice because I was also gonna say buy some Bitcoin as well, but that's my personal uh personal uh preference on certain things. But do you know what I mean? Like that's pretty robust. You're gonna do fairly well, yeah.

Dr James:

Well, it's it's it's again not financial advice, it's the conventional tried and tested way to get rich, isn't it? Right, just make make a good wedge, you know, make enough to have balanced life and be happy in the in the here and now, and then set some away in either in some sort of tax vision for investing vehicle like a nicer pension, and let it compound to infinitum, right? And that is that is the way I think pretty much millions of people across the world have got rich. And even if you do that, even if you do that extremely well, okay, I was reading a stat the other day. Um, what was it? 95% of people in the UK don't own a stock outside of a pension. Now what you gotta remember is there's a lot of workplace pensions, yeah, right? Which own stocks, which buys stocks on people's behalf. So basically, in other words, probab only like five percent of people actually have ISAs or actually have GIAs, right? That have invested in a stock, yeah. So um that is a crazy that is a truly crazy stat. It's literally only one in 20. Yeah. And it kind of when you've actually bought a stock in an ISA or a GIA, it actually suggests you've got a little bit of interest in these sorts of things as well. So, in other words, the other 19 out of 20 either don't know it, don't care. So literally 95% of people. So by the sheer fact you set up an ISA and bought a stock, you're in the top 5%, yeah. And then what I'll what I will say personally from personal experience, just through having these sorts of conversations with dentists a million times over the phone, because they'll pick up the phone and it kind of comes with a territory that they'll share things about their financial situation with me that they might necessarily necessarily share with other people, and they'll tell me about their ICN of pension, and I'll think to myself, hmm, I mean, you've obviously got, you know, you've obviously done something, right? Like you've got a reasonably good, you've got a handle on what to do, but it's probably only two or three times that I can think of that I've that or it you know, definitely at least count on two hands, right, out of those sorts of conversations that I've thought to myself, right, you have actually got this dialed in, like you're it's completely optimized for you. Okay. So of that five percent, like literally 0.1%, have it optimized, optimized. So what I'm saying is to come full circle, is if you do what you're saying and do it extremely well, you're still in the the top 0.1%. And like to be a business owner and be in the you know, to be a business owner and make it successful, um it's way harder, in my opinion.

Dan:

Right, and it's just way way less predictable. It's way predictable, and it's it's just you know, I love it. I think that's a thing. Like I I love doing it. We both like reading books on business, we like it. Uh sometimes I don't like it. You know, like I I kind of when I'm speaking to people, I think if you can love your job 20% of the time, then that's probably quite a good result. I don't know if that's low, low. Some people I tell they're like crikey, and it's not that I hate it, you know, four days of the week. It's just you know, I I want to get that that joy from it, but most of the time it's just WhatsApp kind of gut punch, email gut punch, right? What do I do about this? But I I like that you know that's it's a it's a big part of my identity, so you should have a business if you're like that. Um and it can't just be about commercial return because like you said, like the the smart money is kind of get your head around investment. Also, I mean this is the thing, and it you don't have to say, but like in the years where I've made significant wealth gains, I've also made significant wealth losses because that's when you're learning. Do you know what I mean? Like you can't just do perfect investment from day one. You actually have to commit to this and figure it out. And like you say, maybe in 10 years you might have figured it out where everything's in line and you're like really rock solid with it, but you know, there's no I don't know. I think well, it's it's the leaving the country thing. There is no silver bullet, like yes, like if you want to invest in the stock market, you will have to invest in the stock market, and you'll not just have to do that, you'll have to keep it there when it dips, which is scary and hard, and people struggle with that.

Dr James:

Yeah, and you know, I know this is getting slightly off topic now, but in a weird way, in business or investing, you don't want to make too much money too fast, especially at the start, because guarantee you, you will think you're God's gift, and you will think that you've got the mightest touch, and you will spend your way you will spend the vast majority of it back to where you were before, virtually always. You you wanna you wanna get the battle scars, you want to get the knowledge and get the experience, right? It's it's actually that that's more valuable, okay? And then the money comes after that, and then you're way more likely to retain the money because you can actually sense what a good opportunity is versus isn't. And I I the only reason it's there, that is uh that's basically what happened to me for for extreme years.

Dan:

And that's I I don't know anyone that was into that has been into it that it has some version of it hasn't happened. There's a really good uh I think it was from Michael Saylor tweeted the other day that like if you bought hundred dollars of Bitcoin in 2010, it's worth four billion today. It's not really true because you also had to see it go to ten grand, then down to five and not sell it, and then you had to see it go up and down and not sell it. Like it's not a simple like, oh, I did one trade, I'm suddenly a billionaire. It's like then you've got to hold on to it. So and yeah, and then you've got to how do you hold on to it? Do you have it on decentralized? Do you have it on Coldstock? All of these questions, and you have to make tons of mistakes, and uh you have to invest in things like Luna as well, and uh wake up one morning and uh and had a bit of a crash. But it's you know, I do think crypto's an amazing teacher because the feedback's so quick on it going wrong. Um, so yeah, again, not financial advice, definitely don't take it from me. Um, but like I think, yeah, I think that's what we say, Joe. I wonder, yeah, wonder what your take on it is as well. Like, invest in things that do interest you. So, like we we often say, like, have a few different investment categories. So, stocks and shares kind of probably something you should be doing. You might have your business, uh, but we've got more and more clients who are like quite heavily invested, you know, like hundreds of thousands of pounds in whiskey. And like, there's a fairly compelling uh uh thesis behind them doing it, and I think it's to do with the emerging whiskey market in Asia. Um, and they're interested by it and it works for them. So I'm like, that's that's good because you're more likely to read something about that if you're into it type thing. So yeah, we do see that quite a bit.

Dr James:

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think that if you're gonna be it's it comes down to the active and passive thing, you know, like invest in things, it's just easier for you to make money. If you're gonna be if you're gonna be a passive investor, then you'll only ever really get the average of any market, right? Like Bitcoin is kind of the average is is in a way like an ETF of the crypto market in a in a kind of abstract way, shall we say? Yeah. So if you're gonna invest in something passively, then you kind of need to know a certain amount about the asset that you're investing in. If you're gonna be an active investor, and that counts, I'm gonna include actively trading in that category or actively running a business, then for me, you're better off just picking one asset and knowing the absolute shit out of it. Because if you're gonna be active, you have to be able to beat everyone else, like there's gonna be an average that you've got to be able to make more money relative to everybody, and in that sense, it's competitive. And in order to do that, you need to know more and be better at it, right? So I think for me, um, the second I'm deciding you can only really be truly active in maybe one to two areas because you just there's just not enough space in your brain, otherwise. That's my thesis on that. Um, and for me, it's like okay, if you're going to run a dental practice and do it extremely well, because you're actively participating in the business, then absolutely learn the absolute hell out of how to run one really well, and uh then you're maximizing the odds of you beating everybody else. But yeah, anyway, Dan, I've got a question for you. Will you leave the UK?

Dan:

Uh I won't. I definitely I'd like do you know what it's actually a relief for me to know that I won't, if that makes sense. It just makes it you know, I uh I live in Cornwall, which is not where I'm from originally, but I love it here. Um and I, you know, I like I like the country, I like Britain, so I'll be sticking around. Um, I mean I say that, and I'm sure there's something, something the government could do that could tip me over the edge. But yeah, it's it's definitely very much how do I um still compete in this environment, and mainly how do I make enough money so my kids can afford to have some quality of life and not worry about it because I do think it's gonna be way tougher for them. Well, I mean, we know I think um my parents bought their first house, so it was like three years' salary was the cost of their first house. Whereas what's it now? It's like 20, 25 years or something, um, I think is the average in the UK. So gosh knows what it'll be by the time my kids come to buy a house. So that that's the main the main drive. Um, but yeah, I'd try and I'd also say, because there's kind of negativity around it, but there's still, yeah, you've kind of got your two paths, be an associate. There's a very well-trodden path to getting rich that still works, you just have to own it. Or if you love having a business, be a business owner, and to some degree it's the same as it ever was, it's just there's a few more hurdles to get over. So it's kind of crack on, uh, yeah, and try and do it with a smile on your face, I think is the uh is the main thing. Boom.

Dr James:

And any hmm, just out of interest, I don't know if you can quite answer this question. If not, we can we can cut it out. But if you can, is there any success stories that you can share with us of people that you know who have moved away, all anonymized, of course?

Dan:

Um, there is so the big kind of transactions that there are a few clients that are very well aligned to harness significant tax advantages because they're planning for their exit today, even though it's five five years away. So I'd say it's absolutely worth a conversation. Uh at the moment, the people harnessing it, it mainly is actually just people kind of commuting from Dubai. Um, but the big like swerving loads of taxes, it hasn't happened yet because they kind of have been structuring it through the this year, but they're very, very well set to have a good exit in the future.

Dr James:

Interesting. So, in essence, really we gotta think ahead, it's not an overnight thing. And in order to do this properly, if someone was to leave the UK uh in order to minimize their tax bill or to become tax efficient, then really it's about how can I say this, well get getting strategic. Uh, and uh that would be the main takeaway, I guess, really.

Dan:

Get get clear on what you want, um, and get strategic and get a good advisor, and they should be able to get you significant advantages.

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Dr. James Martin

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